Minutes 05-07-02IAFF Local 1891
05/07/02
First meeting for new contract negotiations
Attending:
For IAFF
Matt Keeler
Barkley Garnsey
Randy Jute
Mike Fitzpatrick
Secretary
Business Agent
President
Treasurer
x6606
x6327
x6340
x6626
For the City:
Wilfred Hawkins
Mary Munro
Jim Ness
Carol Cheek
Asst. City Mgr.
Budget Coordinator
Deputy Fire Chief
HR Coordinator
X6012
x6314
x6333
x6278
Meeting started at 10:00 a.m. The City and the Union recorded the meeting.
Hawkins stated that we would begin with the issues the union wished to discuss and see what
direction we wanted to go from there. He received the list of issues he had asked for. From his
perspective, we want to start discussion what the union wants to discuss. They should take the
lead on where they want to go. (Issues that are most important and want to try to accomplish).
We are willing to listen to where you want to go.
Jute said they went through the contract and although there looks like a lot of items, many of
them they just want to tweak and a lot just need some clarification. So even though it looks like
a lot, it really isn't.
Jute continued that discussions usually start with small items and then move on to large ones
such as wages. This will probably be the same. Use the copies provided to look over and
consider.
Hawkins said that would be fine. He thinks the union will find that on some of the wage issues
we will be able to work things out. There are some concerns regarding the Lieutenants and
Captains pay. We are prepared to work with the union on this.
Fitzgerald asked for clarification: Is the City's position that they have nothing they want to
change in the contract?
Hawkins said that was not what he was saying. What he is saying is that he wants the union to
take the lead on the things they want to talk about. The City is here to work with the union. We
are not here at this particular point to try to impose anything - start from that perspective. That
might be a different approach, but that's the way he works it. He thinks that most of the items on
their list, as they pointed out, are small issues, so he agrees that we can try to get those out of
the way and then get to those things that have some substance and will require more
discussion.
Jute: So you have nothing major or new to throw at me?
Hawkins: I really don't.
Fitzgerald: So the City doesn't have any hidden cards out there.
Hawkins: I don't play that way. I'm straight and up forward. If I had an issue, I would tell you
what it was.
Jute: And we don't either, so this should be as smooth as we can make it. His concern was
about past negotiations.
Hawkins: This isn't past, this is new.
Jute: And we're willing to roll with all the punches here. So that's it, we just want to go one by
one.
Hawkins: OK
Jute: We can go over a couple today, just tell me what you want.
Hawkins: I'm interested to hear where you're going to go on insurance issues. Those are the
kind of things. And I'm prepared to tell you we ourselves are taking a whole new look at
insurance. So my point is philosophically, we may not be in total disagreement on what we need
to do with those issues. The City itself is concerned about the direction we are going for
insurance coverage for the City. I can't come to you with any specifics about what the rates are
going to be this year, but we are definitely concerned about what they may be and what we
have to do about it. The City has a lot of concerns about insurance and benefits issues. These
discussions are out there, but there's nothing specific I can tell you about.
Jute: So you're saying you want to let that one sit?
Hawkins: I would like to let it sit til toward the end. I'm just saying we both have a concern. But
the specifics are so far out there, I couldn't have a factual conversation about it.
Another thing is, duration of the contract. We would like to negotiate a long term contract
- three years.
Jute: We are on the same page, we don't want to be here signing one day and then "See you
tomorrow". We are looking at three years also.
Hawkins: The duration has a lot to do with the negotiations. Short term gratification can
sometimes cloud the issues. If we think long term and how can work out the issues, that will be
more productive.
Did you have any time off issues?
Jute: You mean the Vacation article itself?
Hawkins: I mean did you have anything else in that realm? Personal time, vacation time..
Jute: The vacation article we listed. That was the only time off issue we had other than. the
Union business time
Keeler: and Court time.
2
Jute: Why don't we just start with time. We do have a few issues on time:
Hawkins: Why don't you outline those for me, so I can get a better understanding of what you
are talking about.
Jute: Article 22 Court time. The more we are going to court the more this may come up. We
checked the police contract. Now our employees are being put on stand by - and they don't
know if they will be called, so they can't make any plans like a second job or going on atdp.
Police have that you are paid ~ straight hours for each standby hour up to 8 hours. Minimum of
1 hour straight time. We would like the same thing - now our guys are standing by for no
compensation.
Hawkins: Are you referring to the PBA contract?
Keeler: I believe it's the Lieutenants contract.
Ness: What's happening is that they get the word that they are going to be on notice.
Jute: And there are guys that set their schedule based on their second jobs and some of them
are making $25/hr, so it costs them $3-400 on their side jobs to stand by.
Hawkins: But you are using the FOP language as a basis.
Jute: Correct
Travel time. We changed that. Section 1 where it says "excluding travel time". It's not so
much with Palm Beach County, but sometimes things happen in Miami, and if you have to drive
to Miami for a court hearing and you're excluding your travel time and it takes 2 hours each way,
and you're not being compensation so we have some concerns about that also. Maybe look at
travel time from a central location - something a little bit more fair. Even getting to downtown
West Palm takes more time.
Hawkins: Are you looking for some kind of mileage formula or based on the amount of time you
spend?
Jute: We've thought about that. Some do one, some the other. I like to keep things a little
simpler and mileage is never simpler. Usually just start your pay, but I'm open to anything on
that.
Hawkins: Travel time to and from court is what we're talking about.
Jute: Right
Keeler: Minimum of four. (Still in section I)
Jute: We want to raise the current minimum of 2 hours to a minimum of 4 hours. Once again
you're taking your whole day and we thought it should be a minimum of 4. We've checked other
contracts from South Florida and not all, but most were at 4. We though it would be more fair.
Hawkins: Do most firefighters live inside or outside the City?
3
Jute: Most live hero, in Palm Beach County. Couple in Port St. Lucie, some in Miami. The
majority do live right here.
They have everything in legislative format and will furnish copies.
Compassionate Leave
Garnsey:. Brother and Sister-in-law are not covered. He checked other fire contracts, County for
example, includes both. This is a big impact and should be included. Other contracts also
include Spouse's grandparents. They would like to expand the definition of family to include
these.
Hawkins: Look at it closely so we can get everything taken care of at once. I have no problem
with it philosophically, but look at it comprehensively.
Preamble
Jute: Sections 1 and 2 stay and we want to add a Section 3. We looked at other contract's
language. It's just 'feel good' language.
Hawkins: Sounds good, what does it mean? I'm not trying to be sarcastic, I just want to
understand.
Keeler reads language. They want to make it part of the contract that they have to be good boys
and girls.
There was some discussion and disagreement among the union team and it was decided they
would go back and look at it again to present one meaning.
Rules and Requlations, add Section 4, Page 8
Ness: Reads proposed language which requires 14 days notice for any changes in policy, rules,
regulations or standard operating procedures.
Hawkins: So you want 14 days notice before changing any policy?
Jute: Policies, rules, regulations, SOGs. Hero's the thing, there's no bad intent, but all of a
sudden things come flying around and I don't recall seeing anything about it. It affects all of us. I
think if we had more of a procedure that says before this is set out, it has to come over the
union's desk for review. It would stop grievances too, if we were apprised of these things.
Hawkins: Chief Ness, aro these thing talked at the labor management meeting?
Ness: Chief Bingham would like to keep from increasing the size of the contract - he would like
to keep this administrative. He has no problem working out a procedure to insure a balance
using the labor management team.
Garnsey: The labor management team doesn't meet as often as SOG's come around.
Ness: This language still gives you a copy of the SOG for review. Union acknowledges they get
them for review, but sometimes seems after the decisions aro made.
Hawkins: It could be as simple as when it goes to the union it has "Draft" on it. This would say to
people that you really do intend to discuss it. Why don't we take the gist of this concern back to
4
Chief Bingham and maybe he can prepare some type of statement that would give the union
some type of comfort level in regards to handling it administratively.
Jute: That's fine. Chief Bingham and Chief Ness always try to work with us. This was just
bothering me and I wanted to see it in the loop. We can put this aside for right now.
Hawkins: I just want Chief Bingham to put something together.
Union Business - Article 4, add Section 2
Not changing Section I, but we are finding that we are more involved in union business and we
need more time. We will give you copies of this, it's a little long. I'm sure you have heard of
union time pools, and it's a voluntary thing and it involves additional bookkeeping. We're trying
to keep it simple, but come up with the best way.
Keeler: Reads proposed language. Any bargaining unit member can make donations to the time
pool on a voluntary basis from vacation time or comp time. Can donate any time they have.
Time bank hours will be used on an hour for hour basis. Union and Fire Dept will keep accurate
list of those who donate and only those who donate will be eligible to be called to work in the
absence of someone using the hours for union business.
Jute: Union's responsibility to coordinate with department. Looking at once a year donation.
Hawkins: No problem with philosophy. What we need to work out is the tracking. If we can find a
way to automate this. The Fire payroll person has to understand how this works. This needs to
be very clear or we have to have audit language included. If we can get codes to identify it and
can track it, that would give me a comfort level.
Hawkins: Give us a copy of your language and I would suggest that you talk with the payroll
person - that person may be able to give you some insight. Then Ness, you come up with some
kind of automated program for this and we can go from there.
Jute: The simpler the better.
Fitzgerald: Sign up once and you're in it until you sign off.
Jute: Every year it's going to be different players, once a year sign up would take care.
Further discussion about how and when to sign up to donate.
Hawkins: I would suggest that as soon as you sign up, the hours come out of your bank and you
don't get them back. You see it immediately.
Munro: We are currently doing some comp time for some departments. It doesn't work quite as
clean as sick and vacation accruals, but it's doable. Check with Jeanne for any problems she
may see.
Recoqnition: Article I, Section 1 - re Battalion Chiefs
Ness: We just exed out the BC's. The question that I have . If they submit a petition, - I don't
know if we have anything to say about that.
Jute: The reason we put this in at this time is that we're digging into how they got out in the first
place - if it was done legally. Maybe we don't have to file with PERC. We don't have the answer
5
yet. If we do, then we will go through the proper steps. If not, then we'll bring the proper
paperwork.
Ness: This happened about 4 years or so ago. There used to be Captains that were shift
commanders. Then the new position of Battalion Chief was created as management.
Jute: We're just checking in to see if this was done correctly. Maybe they're in now and we just
don't know it.
Hawkins: So you're doing a paper trail.
Jute: Yes, we're not ready with the answers yet.
Let's go to Physicals, Article 11, Section 3 Immunizations.
Jute: I brought this up because over the last few years, it seems like we have fight to get the flu
shots. We want the flu shots in August or the earliest month they are available.
Cheek: Are you going to require that your members have a flu shot?
Jute: No. Some people don't want them.
Cheek: What we have found is that we will reserve x number of shots and then they don't come.
Jute: We could have them sign up ahead.
Hawkins: Explained about some of the problems last year's shortage. He has no problem with
Fire getting the vaccine first if they want it, but they cannot hold the City totally responsible - the
City can only make it available when they are able to get it. Was there anyone who wanted one
that didn't get It?
Jute:l found out there were a couple last year. It had to do with timing.
Cheek: I think you idea of signing up in advance is a good idea. It will also help us to know how
much to order.
Hawkins: If you sign up early and you want to be first which we agree with, then when the first
batch comes in, you're the first to get it.
Jute: That's all we want.
Hawkins: You need to be flexible about the timing.
Cheek: We had a brief discussion last year about the medics giving the shots.
Ness: It would be a lot simpler for everybody if we could do it ourselves.
Hawkins: If you're going to be first in line, I want you to take the gift. Since we agree
philosophically, I think we can work this out administratively. We will be glad to generate
something from HR and Fire Administration to make sure you (a) get a signup sheet that you do
in, let's say, June and then when the vaccine comes in we notify you to come get it.
Jute: That will be fine, especially if we can give our own shots.
6
Hawkins: Carol, can I get you and Chief Ness to work out an administrative procedure. Could
we get it back to the union at the next meeting.
Ness: There is some questions about whether the medics license allows them to do this.
Jute: If we could simplify this, it's really a simple thing. If we could have early signup and do the
shots ourselves, this could be resolved easily.
Jute: On the list we gave you on uniforms, I believe we've resolved the problems.
Jute: I wanted to go over Article 29 Promotions. Kinser was kind of in charge and he couldn't
come today.
Ness: Chief Bingham also indicated that this was one he would like to work out administratively.
He's very aware of some of the issues.
Jute: We'll put that one off and if we can do it that was, that's fine. We're not trying to shove a
bunch of things into the contract - they're just concerns.
Jute: How about if we go over one more at least easy one by wording, maybe not easy by
coming to any conclusions.
Vacation - Article 19
Jute: As you know last time we settled on the A and B plan. I'll just go over - we're still looking
to go across the board on the A Plan. The A plan has been in effect for as long as I can
remember with no change in hours. We went over a lot of other contracts and there are some
with more hours, but we're not asking to change A, we just want to eliminate B. We will live with
A for three more years.
We can call this meeting and get you copies of everything. Is there anything you want to
bdng up right now.
Hawkins: No, we don't have anything to bring up right now. The major thing is when we start
talking about wages. You may be surprised at how we approach that. I think that the most
difficult thing is going to be the health. Not from our position, but from what the market may do
to us.
Jute: We're willing to work with you on that, we know it's a problem and we have to come up
with an answer, it's killing everybody.
Hawkins: We don't like it either, it makes it difficult on employee relations. Believe me whether
it's private or public sector, everyone is struggling with this issue. We need to come up with a
whole new way of dealing with the whole insurance issue.
One thing with the insurance committee, we are looking at restructuring our whole
benefits approach. We're behind the times - the market is changing.
Can we set up something for June, I'm gone for most of the rest of May.
What we own you is a draft policy on immunizations, and what we expect you to do is to
get with the payroll people, both City and department about the time pool.
7
I want to get a statement from Chief Bingham on how do deal with notices. And you
need to come to some agreement about the Preamble philosophy.
No problem with Compassionate, just be sure you cover all bases.
Court time / Travel time - we will look at the FOP language. And you want to increase
the hours from 2 to 4. I will get some calculations on what that might cost, but I don't think it will
be a big impact.
Next meeting to be the first week in June.
8