Minutes 09-30-68, BOY~ION BEA(/~.~, FLORIDA, AT 7:30 P.M.
Rober~ Olds, Chairman
~yna~d Wer~z
S%mntey Weaver
Foy
Lean Ctoutier
ALSO
C~,~ald lake, City Planner
Ar~ Smith, Asst. Cil7 Plannem
Don f'brgan, County Planning Boar~
James
Col. Webrell
P~. Olds opened ~]e meeting and turned l~he meeting over to Mr. Gerald E~ke,
City Planner
~. Dake: The City Council as}~d us to be consultants to The Planning
Zoning Board re Catdos-Leisureville Project. Tonight~ we want to go
the entire project to point out the things we are concerned about. Then
we will go ove~ it ~th the City Council and %he Leisureville group to make
corrections ~t should be done. ~aen this first came up, we found
~DUld need new tmaffie accesses. Don Pbrgan wants to ~ with you abotrt
it and he feels abo~t the same as we do and we s~puld atter~pt ix) get Ocean
Avenue as an access TO Inter~ta~e 95, eithem ov~e O~ean or under it.
Don Morgan: Palm Beach County star, ed to develop a trsnspor~ation study
abotrt I~D year~ ago. We had nothing, two o~ tb~e yea~s ago to advise us
this new development would t~ke place. Second and 1Sth Avenue would be
sufficient to handle regula~ traffic. After eheek~g om this, the conm~-
cial ar~a of Leisu~eville will produce a lot of tmaffic ~%ich we did not
expect. N~,~ the residential alo~g wi~h it, it is going to be more>.~an
planned for. It is i~pe~tive that we open Ocean Avenue. The i~r4fant
· t~ng is that if we do formally make %his request: to the Rmad Depart,
~qat we present a unified front. The problems that existed in the location
of the interchange initially, was .really something. I T]zink we can present
a perfect situation, as this ]cip~ of development requires a g~ade separ~tfon.
~. Dake: Don, is there anything that the Planning ~ Zoning B~ can do
on this?
Don Morgan: I think the City Council should request this so that ~,~ can
go ahead to the Road De~nt. '
}~. Dake: It is somew]~t of a touchy situation. The developer~ sh~, only
60' road. If we do get the g~ade separation, ~ are going to have ~o have
a g~eate~ ~affie situation for tb~ proper flc~.~ of traffic. How can we get
80' of the road ~ight-of-way qtLickly?
Don Morgau: I ~zink the State Road De~t will go to ~x~rk immediately
on it.
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Ianning g Zoning Board
September 30, 1968
~. Dake: EOn, suppose the Planning Board makes a request of the City to
make a request to you?
Don M~en: I wo~ld immediately get hold o~ Ramos. They a~e tmying to set
.mee.tin with Dek y, tc,, if we can get this re ..uest to them
prior to That meeting ~nd present our Problems, to the~, at that time
can probably sell them ~n this. The meetin~ should he in the next
weeks. I think it would he a terrible mistake in the development of this
grade: separation at Ocean Avenue, if %~ are going to leave it nsrr~ and
hacked up. We need the street opened up and the developer end you will have
to a~e on this.
M~. Olds: He suggested that this he hrou~t up to the Council tonight while
they are having a ~orkslDp meeting.
Discussion held.
Don Morgan: 15~ ocgnes oven2 the r~road and crane The 1-95.
Discussion held.
~. Dake: ~. 01ds will you take care of this at the Council meeting up-
stairs? We ~re ver~ n~ch opposed to them going ~urther on this.
The Planning g Zoning Board moved to the Council Workshop Meeting at this
tim~, to discuss This road situatic~ ,/~th the Council.
I~. 01ds: He advised The Council of the need for Ocean Avenue being kept
open, widening it to 80' instead of 80~~ etc.$ requested the Council to
Eat letter off to the State Road Depmrtmen~ regarding keeping Ocean Avenue
open with ~rade separation.
D~n Horgen: He advised the Council of t_he emergency of this problem. !,~
didn't anticipate such a large oommer~ setup going in out there end
we just have to move now, immediately, to get this matter straightened
out before it is too late. If we can provide,for the ~uture, a S~reet wide
enough to handle the trm~fic, I ~.~ld hate to see the State Road De~t
to spend such money for a grade separation in va'~n. If we ere not going to
provide a street to handle the trm~c situation, we ere faced ~dth then, it
would he a tma~fic situation.
Discussion held by Council end ~'k-.
Don Pk~_~gen: If ther~ is a sl~ong desire to request the State Road De~
for sn official request, with some assurance that you will provide a way
to b~udle additional traffic in the area; I need sc~e type of authomi~y
in writing.
Mayor ~'liohael: He stated that in light of what the County Road De~t
man brought up, we mhould do everything possible to have this street left
open, es it is very impomt.
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September 30, 1968
M~, Dakin: The de~leper has paid no attention to the Council and the
Planning g ~ Board, and we hay& ~temporarily approved scmeth~.
There are a tremendous amount of things in th~ plan to he ¢~u~anted upon.
I~ want to go over this tonight with you and show them to you and we feel
that they should be corrected.
1. This is the kind of a thiug that all the land planners, surveyors,
etc., have been calling sub-standard developments. Small lots, small
streets, etc. It is also a problem with the zoning situation on such small
lots. The way They have designed it is very poor as far as the streets
are concerned. Take the same areas and use cluste~ developments, culdesaes
and make better use of the land than what they show on here. On the major
streets, they have done a very fine job in fronting the houses inside.
They have only made these lots 90' deep, and it will be about 15' or 20'
from the back of the houses to the curb. That in itself will not be a
desirables'ituation.'
There has to be a four lane access out to Second Avenue. Just the dwelling
units will genermte 16,000 units a day. Now t~:. internal situation.
~e residential streets will be private. The Ja~ternal traffic will have
'o
to make a 3 g to get from 2nd Avenue J_nside. We should have some ~ay to
get from 2nd Avenue to the internal part of the development.
They are only showing two areas. Evidentally they feel that two areas
should be sufficient. If they ever should open this to children, then we
are going to really have a problem with no ar~as except the street fo~ the
children to play. As long as it is a ret~t situatic~ we are okay,
bu~ if they eve~ change and have d]ildren, then %~ ~11 really have a
problem.
A very large portion of the traffic from the internal areas will have to be
figured, as there are no sidewalks and 20~ streets. Therefore, we ~iI1 have
traffic. I think we should take the recreation areas and get them a~ay from
major arteries. 15th Avenue is proposed to he one of the m~or arteries of
this Ciiy from the fa~ ~st to the beaches. They have eurve~ this r~ght-
of- way in on their proper~ through the development and. once we get beyond
Congress, we will have to turn it south again. There is no real serious
objection to this, but it would be far bette~ as far as planning goes,
leave it in as straight as possible , line right along ~%e Canal in some way.
I don't see where it i~roves thei~ ~r~oper~y. They ar~ just crea~
commercial sites for themselves. But, if we take it and extend it Through
they will s~ill have one torten and then they can leave the other one a
co~me~ area. We should leave 15th down at the South en~ of the prop~.
In this overall design of the area, we show scme good ideas. On 2nd Avenue
~ are simply showing deeper lots. We would pr~.fer tha~ they use son~
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September S0:1968
clustering so that ~m don't have a solid wall of houses up against 2nd
Avenue. These lots s]~m~ld be 110' to 120' or 150' deep~ so that ~hese
~. ~ sam~ ~rnn~ ~s ~e along Co~s Avenue.
It is ou~ pmoposal ~o extend 15th Avenue on th~ough~ so that it does not
curve Gn thei~ prope~ and instead, we give them a single exmm~r~ial
corner instead of sPlittin~ them in t~o. We ~,,~uld extend this conmerCial
down and it would give them another ~al corner and in effect, They
are no~ goin~ ~o loose any ~ial corners.
They have an opportunity to create sormthin~ ~th appeal. A free fora
thing with interesting roads, culdesacs, etc. On the p~ns we saw up stairs,
they are planning on a square lake and row houses and these are not what we
want them to do. I think we should request from them, that we get a planted
landscaped area from the rear of these houses about l~' or 20' as a huffem
zone, etc. from the shopping center.
If we are successful ~en we sit d~m wiTh the developers and if we are
successful in getting Them to cce~ up with an improve8 design for these lots,
perhaps they may loose a f~ lots, hut we could give them an apartment area
surrounding the !~ke, with TcWn Houses, Condominiums, etc., in a cluster
situation. It would also tie in very well with the golf course. There
isn'~ anything %he Planning Board can do to force Th~m to make a bette~ use
of their land. In the O~ce: we could probably force them. to do a
~ _ _ ~ ~ _we nave something here that ~ ar~ going to really handle
e~y carezulzy and There ~ne so~a things that we will have to study very
closely. When we approach the Council and the Developers, we can talk to
them and show them what we would prefer fen the ~cessany changes.
On the. recreation area,, with. congestion, on Ocean, they should attempt to
~ ~- -2-- ...... ~ ~,,~ Z~j~. ~. Il uoean becomes a th~n,,~ ~+~+
..... = ...... ~,.-~ ~,,=.,.~.~:e ~ area on ~he SouTh side
of Ocean Avenue. The North side of Oeean~ it is going to cmeate a lo~ of
cross ~r~ffic because the majomity of the homes it will serve will be South
of Ocean Avenue. The same ~hing goes fo~ the other reoreation area. I~
should also be more internally rather than on the main stmset.
We have been talking about increasing the size of' lots .for sin~e,family
~mes. The way they have layed thes~ lots out is very bad. The~ should
go to cluster. W~ should force them to go to cluster.
Discussion held with P~. Dak~ by the members of the Board.
Art Smith: The oo~cept of the Ordinance that we wrote, the whole idea
of special exception is to see ~hat this type of development is normally not
perilled. In ~ahis zoning ~lassification ~his type of development is not
permitted, but under. ~ special conditions and consideratioD~ known as~the
~Speeiat Exception~ ~ it may be permitted. No one has a might~ as such, and
Seut:~ 30, 3.968
these special conditions .~elude a lot of requ~ts~ densii7 is one of
them. We may allow this type of development, but ~m can control ~he actual
density. On that point alone, you can make them change it. That alone
will eliminate that plat. If it does not meet the specifications that you
think it should, you do not permit it. You have a full control of the
design of this ~nd it is w~itten in the 0rdinanee. You have the right to
landscaping, pools, screening, utilities, etc. all these things must be
considered. :'
~. Dake: They have pushed tb/s thing throu~%, up to now. We have
given them approval of the overall plan. Before they can get a special
e~x~.ption, we have t~'g'iv? .o~ ?p. prov_al. Council oannot give it to them~
it is up to us. I Dank at is time for the Plsr~ Boar~ to say that unde~
Special Exceptions, etc., ~ have ~eviewed it and we feel these changes
have to be made. If they des.ign this might, they can have a real good thing
here. They could get a ~eautiful system, pedestrian ways, at the rea~ of
this ~, which would flow through out the whole development. They
w~uldn't lose ___t~a? ~many.lo~s, .if t~.ey changed .~.hei~ plans. They will lose
a f~, lots if ~ reques~ clus~er, znstead of this thing they have here.
~. Olds: They sho%~d piotur~s ove~ the countrs/.' and a numbe~ of those had
sidewalks in the rea~.
Art Smith: The whole concept has been lost. We passed an Ordinance and
everyone thinks they have alt the ~ights to do as they please.
~'~. Dake: I have a list of tbdngs here about ~o pages l~ng that would
bring out the most important points.
Mr. We~tz:
M~. Dake:
wi~?
Have they decided the numbe~ of houses?
Yes, they plan on 2,000.
Aren't ~ o0mmitted on the first plat twmt ~.~ let them go ahead
P~. Dake: Yes. But~ ~;e can make them. do sc~e of the t3dngs that ~ want
tham to do.
Stanley Weave~: I think the Board is pretty much in agreement on this
whole thing and I feel and have felt from the begi~ that we are not
hur~ing ourselves to request a meeting and we will have plenty of time to
really go over this. i think we owe it to the Council end to these people
and especially thei~ engineez~, that they will have to stop and reconside~
tbmt ther~ might be soma i~provement in the design and to tel! them to stop
tr~ing to plan any further. We will have to give a little and we can make
them give some also. I feel that most of the discussion tonight has been
very good. He is in this to make money and he knows ~,~at he is doing and I
am sure that in the long ~un, he will thank us. He should be prepared to
do a bette~ job.
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Plannin~ ~ Zoning Board
Sepl:~ 30~ 1968
l~. Olds: The more desirable a place is the more money they could make
out of it.
Stanley Weaver: I think that possibly on one side of the golf course you
could give them Tc~ Houses and A~s and they can make up in those
what they could lose in private homes.
M~. Dake: They will possibly lose about 10% of the lots, if we get th~m. to
do what we really want them to do. This development is going to set the
character for the rest of the area. This is nothing but a sub-standard sub-
divisic~. We should ~ite a lette~, as a PlaDning Board, to the Council
telling them that in accordance with this new Ordinance 68-19, the P/arming
Board feels there are some serious deficiencies and that ~ ~ould like to
get with the Council and the developer~ as soon as possible. I would ,like
these ideas to be from the Planning $ Zoning Board and not the Planner.
We should get with the City Council first end then let the Couneil advise
us if we oan meet with the develope~. These are ou~ eonm~nts. %Ye, as a
Planning Board, and Planner, we can't c~iticize 'the road design, but we can
say it is possible to improve upon it and we know how that can be done~
and actually, there should be anothem b~idge across the canal somewhere.
There is no crossing anywhere on ibis entire plaT, without getting out c~
to Ocean Avenue or lSth and there should be anothe~ crossing, somewhere.
Discussion held.
Stanley Weaver: I would like the City Council to give us another workshop
like they did last week. The~, if they want to get the developer~ immediately
after that, or a couple of days late~, then that %,~uld be fine. We need to
tell Caldos and the oth~ people working fora them, that we have some changes
to discuss and to hold up on the rest of this development.
M~. Dake: ~ have a regula~ Planning g Zoning Meeting next Tuesday. Could
we get the Council to attend ou~ %~kshop meeting after the reEule~ meeting?
~. $~%ave~: After oum public meeting is ove~, we are going into a ~orkshop
session and there will be no need fo~ anyone to stay around.
M~. Dake: They have never brought back a final print for ou~ approval unde~
the subdivision recommendations.
Note: At this point in the meeting, the Oouneil came in and the Board ~x-
plained the situation to t~m in ~t.
~. Olds: He gave information regarding the feeling of the Board. Stated
they did not have an oppor~ha~ity to give it the proper s~_,dy and feeliug,
and under this Ordinance, we do not have to allow everyth~ they plan on
being there. The lack of sidwalks, ~ streets, etc., and we would like
to discuss it with you and then take it back to Caldos. We cmn offe~ a few
suggestions, but cannot complain too much. At least we can show them a few
things that are wrong. ~en it comes to further development, we can stop
them, as theme are too many Things that
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September SO, 1968
PM. !~eaver: The layout is not proper for this type development.
Discussion held.
Mr. Dake: He gave a complete report to ~e Council using the dr~gs on
the hoard that were discussed tonight, by the me~ of the Board. ~
Olds was requested to ~*~ite a lette~ to Catdos, regarding s~ changes
that have to he made mhd Set up a meeting %ith them for next Tuesday night,
~. Wertz moved the meting ~e adjourned.
carried. Meeting adjourned at ll:O0 P.M. /~
/
Rob~r~ Olds,